Curse

Sacratus Ignis · Nov 03, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Hey guys,

so I'm rank 10 norn (got it while doing legendary master of the north), and want to start using Ursan blessing on occasion to take advantage of its overpowered nature and my rank 10 norn.

Was wondering if anyone had done this and had advice on equipment/build. i was thinking either Ele/War or Ele/Para, going either sword/spear with zealous mod and defense mod and a shield.

suggestions would be great... attributes/skills/and equipment including runes etc if u can.

ty

tmakinen · Nov 03, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

* E/P for Signet of Return
* All Survivor Insignia and Runes of Vitae except Minor Energy Storage on headpiece and Major or Superior Vigor somewhere
* req9 Command or Motivation shield
* req9 Zealous Spear (+AL or +HP recommended)

10 Spear Mastery
10 Command/Motivation (for the shield)
11 + 1 + 1 Energy Storage

Ursan Blessing
Signet of Return
rest whatever

The reason for 1 higher than requirement for spear and shield is that Weakness drops your attributes by 1 and if you're wielding a spear you're a preferred target for monsters that spread weakness. Use spear to keep your energy up.

Daf · Nov 06, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I'm doing E/W with ursan.

skillbar:
Ursan Blessing, "I Am Unstoppable!", "I Am The Strongest!", [skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill], the rest you can fill up with some attack skills

got to see the right attribute points when i'm home but i think:
11 tactics
10 axe (can be sword/hammer to)
10 + 1 energy storage

I'm using a Victo's battle axe and a Exalted Aegis.

I use the extra pve skills for armor when my ursan ends so i can keep on fighting. I've got rank 7 now and i'm able to survive in NM and HM

__________________
edited attribute points

Skyros · Nov 08, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

E/P for Sig of Return, Mending Refrain, optional rest.

Cast Mending Refrain on yourself then go bear form and keep it up with your Shout.

You dun need points in anything else besides energy storage/command (go as high as you can with headpiece +major/superior run of ES -> you want URSAN to last as as much as possible).

Equipment - Normal Staff/Wand offhand/Sword offand/ etc. THEN a +15/-1 energy set while in bear form to Boost your energy even higher (make sure you switch to normal set before changing out of Bear Form or you'll get -30 energy and even slower energy recharge.

Specing in spear/sword/exe/etc may seem like a good idea but its not... dont forget you become squishy again without Ursan... Going up to mob would be last thing youd want to do with 60 AL and no energy as you come out of ursan.

Marverick · Nov 12, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Spear doesn't make you go up to a mob. It does more damage than a Staff and you can use a Zealous upgrade to get more energy.

Ensign · Nov 12, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Isn't using Ursan Blessing without taking advantage of the skills it gives you vomit-inducingly godawful?

tmakinen · Nov 12, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Isn't using Ursan Blessing without taking advantage of the skills it gives you vomit-inducingly godawful?

Um, nobody has suggested that one wouldn't use the ursan skills ... but using them only takes up 34% of your time at maximum, so if you have a zealous spear, you can do some additional damage and get extra energy during that 66% idle time, so it's a win-win situation

Good point about Mending Refrain, Skyros

Ensign · Nov 12, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Trading your entire skillbar for Ursan Strike has to be one of the worst trades you can make in Guild Wars. How is this anything more than a silly gimmick character to mess around with when you're bored?

tmakinen · Nov 12, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

How is this anything more than a silly gimmick character to mess around with when you're bored?

Yes, so what? Sometimes it's fun to ride the short bus

Buns United · Nov 12, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Infact, I always run it with ranger as my secondary, taking a pet for extra damage (ursan roar does affect em

). Do I get a cookie?

Div · Nov 12, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I think part of ensign's point was that by using a spear, you're losing out on the ability to use ursan rage effectively. Plus, if you have a perma-speed boost in ursan force, why not let it be effective in combat too? The other point is that only bad eles use ursan blessing.

Use a sword. It ownzzzz.

Zamochit · Nov 12, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

a zealous scythe can be fun too, if you can afford the lost AL.

tmakinen · Nov 13, 2007, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I think part of ensign's point was that by using a spear, you're losing out on the ability to use ursan rage effectively.

Quite the contrary. Since (1) we all agree on that 'tank and spank' is a fragile strategy, (2) ursan is not self-sufficient thus requiring squishy support and (3) ursan doesn't provide passive defense like "Watch Yourself!" (or indeed SY! and TNTF!), it directly follows that the optimal strategy for an elementalist ursan player in a typical mixed-profession mob encounter is to stay with the support characters, project ranged force against enemy support as called, and suppress enemy melee within own ranks with KD and weakness. It is really not that different from playing a normal warding/pressure elementalist build in that you must keep an eye on the positioning of all units on the field to reach the optimal performance, both in defense and offense. A bad elementalist would go up close to hack the enemy monk with a sword and let the enemy melee rape her support, and a bear without support is a dead bear

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The other point is that only bad eles use ursan blessing.

I would hazard the guess that the way you presented that claim it's cyclical, thus non-falsifiable and thus worthless. Let's still entertain the though for a while:

* a bad elementalist uses ineffective skills - many people claim that UB is too effective, up to game breaking levels
* a bad elementalist fails at energy management - UB requires proper energy management or you'll be caught with bear pants around your ankles

* a bad elementalist fails at positioning and party support - see above how the positioning and party support of an elementalist bear is pretty much identical with a 'normal' ele build
* a bad elementalist fails at following/prioritizing targets - for a bad elementalist who only knows how to hit entire mobs with wide area spells, UB only makes matters worse by underlining the problem

Or maybe you meant that 'good elementalists don't need UB to be effective'? That is certainly true but 'don't need' != 'won't use'. Arguably, a really good elementalist will be able to be quite effective with nothing but Flare on their skill bar (heck, I might be able to go solo in UW and kill an Aatxe with nothing but Flare on my skill bar if I was really bored) but that doesn't validate the claim 'only bad eles need more effective skills than Flare.'

UB is a tool. For some tasks it is currently the best tool available. In real life I'm a middle aged space scientist and I don't need to prove anything in a game. I use what is available and if the rules change, I adapt. There's no point in QQ'ing either way any more than there's reason to throw a hissy fit because you can't break the speed of light.

Div · Nov 13, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

UB is only game breaking because 99% of PvE players run trash bars. I'd take a ursan warrior over some random scrub wammo with nothing but defense stances and maybe one or two attack skills. The point is, a well, thought out team would do better than your 5-6 ursan and 2-3 monk teams, but how often does that happen, and who really wants to bother coordinating a good team? Even if you get the right skills on people's bars, if they suck, they'll suck. With UB, even the shittest of players will do well mashing 1234 repeatly whenever the skills recharge.

With UB, eles have 80 base armor (+16 for shield), which is just as much as a warrior against non-physical damage. Wouldn't exactly call that a squishy.

tmakinen · Nov 13, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

UB is only game breaking because 99% of PvE players run trash bars.

Couldn't agree more

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

With UB, eles have 80 base armor (+16 for shield), which is just as much as a warrior against non-physical damage. Wouldn't exactly call that a squishy.

No, by 'squishy support' I meant that any ursan character regardless of base profession always requires support from other characters of squishy nature. Since this support is much more a one-way street than in a well crafted non-UB team where the physicals provide team support back in the form of shouts, chants and the like, you should pay particular attention to your lifeline (i.e., the support characters) and AoE KD/weakness is what you can contribute as long as you stay among the support characters. Use the ranged attacks and Strike to pressure enemy support, strafe next to enemy melee units (you yourself are not the preferred target of any monster) and swipe them with the AoE skills without losing the pressure on enemy support. Just normal smart play to maximize the effectiveness of the skills.

Ensign · Nov 13, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

* a bad elementalist uses ineffective skills - many people claim that UB is too effective, up to game breaking levels

That's the reason Ursan Blessing is good as far as I can tell. On a Warrior or Paragon, Ursan Blessing is a pretty good skillbar that is very easy to run. They're not top-notch characters, but reasonably close, and definitely better than a mediocre bar played by a mediocre player. On any caster, the skill certainly isn't good...certainly not on par with a Warrior or Paragon using the skill, or what you could do with a skill bar. But it turns you into a mediocre Paragon or Warrior that, again, is very easy to play. The strength of Ursan Blessing, and Ursanway by extension, is how it guarantees the player a strong, easy to run skill bar in a heavy physical PvE build; the type of PvE build that's been tearing through PvE for years.

If it's too strong, it's for how easily it lets a bad player perform like a competent to good player, not for the power ceiling of the skill.

Mr None · Nov 13, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's the reason Ursan Blessing is good as far as I can tell.

There are so many threads about how overpowered this skill is and how it turns PvE into play ground for reckless bears. I was surprized, Ensign, you never commented in any of them; would really like to hear your openion on the topic

(http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10214213 for instance)

tmakinen · Nov 13, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

On a Warrior or Paragon, Ursan Blessing is a pretty good skillbar that is very easy to run. They're not top-notch characters, but reasonably close, and definitely better than a mediocre bar played by a mediocre player. On any caster, the skill certainly isn't good...certainly not on par with a Warrior or Paragon using the skill, or what you could do with a skill bar. But it turns you into a mediocre Paragon or Warrior that, again, is very easy to play.

My reasons for using UB (on occasion, not all the time) derive from the facts that (1) I started out as an elementalist and while I have a reasonably well developed PvE character of every profession, the combination of defense, crowd control and direct force that an elementalist can provide has kept it my primary character all the time, (2) while I do belong to a reasonably active guild, I spend a large portion of my in-game time with H+H (they don't complain when I have to afk half an hour for every fifteen minutes played) and (3) the hero/hench AI has ... issues. I like strategy games, I do not like to micromanage every red engined hero positioning and skill usage during a fight. Unfortunately, there are places where it's better to be a lousy paragon than a good elementalist, at least if you have a team of infuriatingly stupid NPCs to lead. UB makes you less palatable to monsters, leaving you free to do what is your primary task, i.e., lead the party. Now if you have a team of at least semi-competent real players the situation is totally different and there's really no point in forfeiting a good skill bar in favor of UB except for git and shiggles, because you can rely on others to do their part properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If it's too strong, it's for how easily it lets a bad player perform like a competent to good player, not for the power ceiling of the skill.

That's what I've been saying here and there, as well ...

Ensign · Nov 13, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

There are so many threads about how overpowered this skill is and how it turns PvE into play ground for reckless bears. I was surprized, Ensign, you never commented in any of them; would really like to hear your openion on the topic

I tend to avoid Riverside these days; I'll make a point of skimming over that thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

UB makes you less palatable to monsters, leaving you free to do what is your primary task, i.e., lead the party.

I call that my shield set, but I understand the point. It's the same idea as the hero battle Assassin, you play a reasonably powerful no skill character yourself so you can focus on microing the heroes as well as possible. I can sympathize, especially when you're having to play a game of 'move the henchie ball' to avoid blowing up to every static AoE cast.

Div · Nov 13, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

No, by 'squishy support' I meant that any ursan character regardless of base profession always requires support from other characters of squishy nature. Since this support is much more a one-way street than in a well crafted non-UB team where the physicals provide team support back in the form of shouts, chants and the like, you should pay particular attention to your lifeline (i.e., the support characters) and AoE KD/weakness is what you can contribute as long as you stay among the support characters. Use the ranged attacks and Strike to pressure enemy support, strafe next to enemy melee units (you yourself are not the preferred target of any monster) and swipe them with the AoE skills without losing the pressure on enemy support. Just normal smart play to maximize the effectiveness of the skills.

Meh, I usually think of squishy support in the form of good monks knowing how to use prots. But I guess after reading some of the other posts, I can understand that it's often hard to do with H&H. With real players that know what they're doing, such support is less needed, but we all know it's pretty much impossible to find a truly good group of players.